I'm still in shock (and self-disgust) so please forgive me if I sound mad. I am. At myself. :hatchet:

I've been having some severe hair thinning issues (bald lines on crown) in the past year. I discovered LHC in May and turned to an all-natural hair care, which was simply great - I started to love my hair and also really care for it. But even after 6 months of finding LHC (and some wonderful friends) and going the natural hair care way, I was still losing hair and despairing.

Well, I found an answer for my hair loss y'day. You can read abt it here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?p=945634#post945634).

I'm kicking myself. Why didn't I do this before? Why did I have to lose about 50% of my hair (mostly from the crown) and THEN suddenly get the good sense to consult a trichologist (mostly thanks to epiphanee, skark7 and Artista (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=51764&page=2))... why did I suffer all this time unnecessarily? Why did I decide to self-doctor myself, instead of getting a test done as soon as I returned to India in April.. why why why :brickwall

Well. Lots of whys and one sorry woman. All said and done, self-kicking hurts. Really. I know quite a few people here are having chronic hair loss issues... and wondering and hurting and feeling scared like me... to all of them, my request is - please, please PLEASE get your hair scanned and tested ASAP. Like NOW. Er, if it's night in your part of the world, may be tomorrow. A. S. A. P.

I cannot stress it more. I repeat - self-kicking is NOT nice.

:sad

R

P.S.: Thanks for reading this.

:grouphug:

I´m losing lots of hair and thought it was stress-related. I have also been depressed for a while, and read that you can lose hair then.
If my hair won´t stop falling off, I will certainly think of getting it scanned.
Thank you for sharing

smara, I am so happy that you have had a proper diagnosis and found out what the problem was.

If you don't mind, could you post or PM me which type of microbes are responsible and what treatment you have been prescribed. It's always interesting for me to see how Trichologists in different countries treat the same problem.

Loving regards and best wishes!

I'm so glad that you've found an answer! I'm pretty sure that once you get the fungal infection under control, you can start to grow hair in the balding patches again! Don't be so hard on yourself. Who would have thought of fungus? Not me, that's for sure. I think this should give you lots of hope for growing your hair back and beautiful hair in the future. :flower: Keep us posted. And good luck! :wink: It feels so good to have an answer, doesn't it?

How great that you've got a plan! Do let us know what is recommended for the infection. Once in a while, I do a shampooing with Nizoral, which is supposed to be good for clearing fungal infections, just in case. I believe they're actually quite common. I started doing this after having a bad bout of extreme itchiness that the doc said was prob fungal.

:flowers: and :rockerdud

I'm hoping for the best! At least you know what you're fighting against now! Take care!

I'm very glad to hear that you've found a reason for your hair loss that should be fixable! Good Luck with your treatment!

I have followed your battle aganist hairloss and I´m soo glad you found an answer! I hope the treatment is easy and kind to your hair.

Best wishes and good luck!

Oh, smara--what a wonderful thing to know now what is causing it! And it was great to have it suggested to you by other LHC'ers. These infestations of fungus are relatively common, as far as unnatural hair loss goes. We've had quite a few members with them.

To the best of my knowledge, everyone's hair started growing back once the treatment began to work. I'm so happy for you. Now I know what I'll do if it happens to me.

A question--is Nizoral available without a prescription?

I am glad that you found help to treat your problem and hope you have a speedy recovery.

Hugs and so glad you found the answer! Instead of beating yourself up, be glad that it is NOT irreversible and that you now have an answer and are on your way to getting better!!! I know it's easy to be mad at yourself but remember you cannot go back and rewrite history! Concentrate on the GOOD that came out of it!!! :hollie: :hollie: :hollie: There now! A banana dance just for you!!! :flowers:

Smara-
So glad you found the problem...sounds like a very reversible issue. Soon you can go forward growing out those areas.I would also be very interested in knowing the type/names of the organisms/fungus and causes responsible for this. Please do let all of us know and also we all want to follow your progress.

hooray Smara,
Glad to hear you got some help for you hair problems. Good luck

Smara, I am so glad for you that you've finally found the answer to your hairloss. I think that is the biggest step towards recovery! Who would have thought about fungal infection? Well, i am also been having shedding, so if you don't mind, I have a few questions for you: Did you have lots of flakes? Did your scalp itchy? Can washing with shikakai prevent fugus on the scalp? Thanks! Best wishes and take care!

Wow, just wow! So glad you went and sorted it out and that it's all cure-able :grouphug:

Smara - here's praying that you regrow all your hair back and fast!

I would highly recommend some positive affirmations too - like Chotee has specified in her journal (Wonder where she is these days!)

I couldn't help but shudder at the thought of fungal infection of hair... I am so glad you found the cause of the dreaded hair loss! You go, girl! Do turn to the LHC for support.

Hmm... I will definitely buy some anti-frugal herbs to incorporate into my washes in the future!

I'm taking note of this thread...I lost over half of my hair thickness when I was 16/17 and still have no clue why (although I was anorexic and severely bleaching my hair during this time! :( I'm still holding it to that). I'm 27 and still fighting it tooth and nail! I've had blood tests run to no avail and I'm going to keep this route in mind. GOOD LUCK with your hair regrowth and thank you so much for posting this!

I'm so pleased you are finally getting this issue sorted hun! I know it's been a terrible weight on you, but now, you can treat it and grow some gorgious hair out! (And i've seen pictures...you have stunning hair!)
I'm surprised though, as if my memory is correct you use henna, which i understood to be anti-fungal.
This has made me decide to prioritise doing ACV rinses as a precaution.
Good luck....and congratulations! :grouphug:

I am so glad you finally got a diagnosis and you can now move forward. I can't even imagine how stressful severe hairloss could be but thank you for sharing your experience. Hopefully it will help others in the same boat. Good luck in your recovery.

What a relief it must be that you finally have an answer! Thank you for sharing your experience and I hope you will share your recovery too. Good luck to you!

Hey! Don't beat yorself up! Just be glad that you found out what is causing it and hopefully you can cure it now. :flowers:

Dear LHCers,
A big hug to all of you who had replied to my post. And a bigger apology for disappearing on you all. I started work recently in a publishing firm and it's been mayhem these past few weeks. I had to divide my time between dermatologist appointments and work, so I crashed as soon as I came home; no chance of late-night LHCing!

Thankfully, the mad rush is finally over. I have updated my journal here -
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?p=970259#post970259

about my search for the truth about my hair loss. Unfortunately, I have not started my treatment yet - because I am really, really confused. I know I should stick to one doctor and follow her advice, but.... things are not going very well. Please pray for me.

TIA,

R

I've read your journal Smara... I would be very confused as well if 4 different doctors told me all these different causes and cures....
Quiting your job and taking a music class seems a strange advice (not very feasable as well)... As well as using an 'antiviral laser treatment' to cure a fungal infection (???!!!!!) . Using aromatherapy and scalp massaging to treat a severe fungal infection seems kind of contradiction to me as well. You've had scalp massages before with no result...
Your local dermatologist seems to give the most 'rational' advice. The Nizoral would prevent fungal infections and helps to combat bacterial infections (I know this because my dermatologist explained it to me) and the Rogaine would help to slow down your hairloss. The underlying ilness (your kidneys, anemia, stress,...) needs to be adressed and then your hair should grow back within a year.
The scalp-pain could be a bit psychomatic (I don't mean this in a bad way.. it's just that your hairloss is a very emotional thing...).
But of course I'm not a doctor...
Take care Smara!

Smara, I'm glad you finally found out what was causing your hair loss. Good luck for the future and your new growth! (((hugs))))

I'm glad that you found a solution.

I am thinning on top, near my forehead. I think its due to stress, anxiety, depression. I'm hoping thats all it is. But if it starts getting worse, I will get my hair scanned too.

oh smara, that's great! It's wonderful when you finally get the help you deserve...good for you for your patience and perserverence.

medical professionals can be hard to deal with - very often they don't know, and it also often happens that they don't *SAY* that they don't know! Very frustrating.

Has anyone talked to you about diet? There are some good immune-strengthening things you can do like reducing gluten and sugar and stuff, maybe some beneficial organisms like in yoghurt would help...I'm not a professional, but I know there are a lot of good dietary things you can do out there...

Anyway congrats and best wishes as you grow grow grow! :D

Katze

Smara, I don't wonder that you are confused. I hope you find the answers you need soon and while I know it will sound trite and probably ridiculous, try to be calm. Whatever else is going on, I am certain stress won't help. Many hugs going your way!

Aw!!! It's OK!!! Hey at least you found a solution. You could still be in the same boat without an answer. So look at the positive! Stop kicking yourself! LOL!!!

*supportive hugs* It will be okay :flowers:

I am so sorry to hear that you are down and confused and your hair loss problem is still going on. I read your journal and my heart goes out to you. Actually, after reading your massage about fungal infection, and Heidi W.'s article about mites on the scalp that can cause hair loss, I started putting pure undiluted Tea Tree oil on my scalp every night, and my itchiness and dandruf which had developed during my WO months had quickly disappeared, and my shed has gone down 30%. I read that TTO is very effective in curing fungal infection and killing mites. And it has the added benefit of stimulating hair growth. So far, I have used it for 15 days, and my growth rate is doubled. I grew 0.4 inch in November, and in the last 15 days, I grew 0.4 inches! I measure twice every month. maybe you can try it out, I am sure it is WAY cheaper than the laser treatment. Also about the scalp pains, I had them, too. They felt like bruise pain, sometimes even sharp pains. Those completely went away for me after I had my 2nd accupunture session. My accupunturist told me that it is because the flow of Qi (engery) is blocked. And in my case, the flow my blood is also not good, she called it blood and Qi stagnation, I understood it as poor micro-circulation. Anyway, after she started poking some needles into my head and body, 2 times a week, I have no more scalp pains, or headaches and a lot less pain in general. Oh, I am also taking Chinese herbal tea prescribed by her. I went to see for for a variety of problems ranging from missing period, troubled sleep, chest, body, scalp pains, tinnitus, blurried eye sight, dry eyes and hair loss. It has been 2 months so far, and a lot of the problems have improved. At least I have regular periods, no more pains and dry eyes, and I sleep well now. She said all my problems are due to severe blood deficeincy which created blood and Qi stagnation. Chinese medicine and Ayurveda have a lot of similarities, they even use a lot of common herbs. In my herbal tea, there is bringaraj!! Have you considered to go see an Ayurveda doctor? Hope this helps!


Oh! and here *a big hug* from me!

Please have your blood checked for any autoimmune disorders.....I have an autoimmune disorder and the ONLY symptom I had was hairloss. After going to the dermatologist he found fungus yes, inflamation yes, dandruff yes...... Now I am not saying you have an autoimmune disorder but many times they are discovered by way of this symptom only and some physicians are somewhat not as adept lets say...at eliminating ALL OTHER POSSIBILITES. If your thyroid checked ok and your diet is adequte and there is no anemia, and stress is not a factor, well have an antibody test for any autoimmune trouble...Please. I AM NOT A DOCTOR but a nurse and can assure you doctors can misdiagnose... My hair loss sounded just like yours scalp showing everywhich way !! no matter how much I tried to hide it. My hairloss was over a period of months not overnight, but it was not normal hairloss. Thankfully I have it undercontrol now. Please ask about the antibody test...and if your told nonsense then find a doctor who will listen and test for ALL possibilities not just the first.

I had a dream a few nights ago that I was losing my hair and had patches where my hair had come out. I was devastated but indescribably relieved when I woke up...I am so sorry that this is happening to you and you aren't just dreaming it like I was. I know that when I am stressed and depressed I lose a surprising amount of hair. I would imagine that the fact that you are losing hair, for whatever the original reason was (fungal infection, kidney stones...who knows at this point), is only causing you more stress and leading to even more hair loss. I really hope you can find a real solution and see some results soon, because this problem is getting out of hand.

Hello everybody!

EQ, after reading your post, I took a reiki trial class last weekend. It was soo soothing! I am definitely going to give it a try. Thank you!

Scarletmellissa, I am going to ask my doctor about autoimmune disorders… thank you letting me know about AI disorders!

Friends, once again, thank you all for your warm words :flowers: . I am at work now, so please forgive me for this very brief post. I did meet the famous doc. What a waste of a work day! Grrrr. You can read about it here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?p=973778#post973778).

And a surprising twist. I also met another ayurvedic doctor last evening, who gave me some unexpected news. Here’s his verdict (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?p=974840#post974840) on my hair loss issues.

I strongly feel that I should listen to the second doctor’s advice. Any comments? TIA!

Gratefully yours,

R

My Hair Journal (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=47229)

Well, I definitely liked the second doctor better! The famous one sounded like a real jerk.

It would be wonderful if you could go to Kerala for a 14-day treatment (something I've wanted to do for a long time), but maybe you can continue to go to his clinic for treatment to see if you get improvements, even if you do have to keep working in air-conditioned offices.

Good luck and keep us updated. :smile:

Smara, I am so glad for you because I believe you've found the doctor that you need! I am of course talking about the brilliant Ayurveda doctor. I don't think western doctors know how to deal with hairloss, that's why I went to my current Chinese doctor, who also felt my pulse and listened carefully to all I had to say.

Would you please give me the Ayurveda doctor's name and address and phone number, I would like to recommend him to my mother and father in law, they are currently living in Chennai. Also when I do come to Chennai, I would love to visit him, too. Well, at least to find out which hair oils are good for me. :smile: Thanks! And Best wishes, I hope it will all work out for you. I strongly believe that you are on your way to recovery! I think your doctor is brilliant! Please keep us posted.

Oh, and I have to say, you are really good at writing, I enjoyed reading your experiences with the 2 doctors very much. You wrote it so lively that I felt like I was watching it on TV!

Smara, I am so glad for you because I believe you've found the doctor that you need! I am of course talking about the brilliant Ayurveda doctor. I don't think western doctors know how to deal with hairloss, that's why I went to my current Chinese doctor, who also felt my pulse and listened carefully to all I had to say.

Would you please give me the Ayurveda doctor's name and address and phone number, I would like to recommend him to my mother and father in law, they are currently living in Chennai. Also when I do come to Chennai, I would love to visit him, too. Well, at least to find out which hair oils are good for me. :smile: Thanks! And Best wishes, I hope it will all work out for you. I strongly believe that you are on your way to recovery! I think your doctor is brilliant! Please keep us posted.

Oh, and I have to say, you are really good at writing, I enjoyed reading your experiences with the 2 doctors very much. You wrote it so lively that I felt like I was watching it on TV!

Hello everybody!

EQ, after reading your post, I took a reiki trial class last weekend. It was soo soothing! I am definitely going to give it a try. Thank you!

Scarletmellissa, I am going to ask my doctor about autoimmune disorders… thank you letting me know about AI disorders!

Friends, once again, thank you all for your warm words :flowers: . I am at work now, so please forgive me for this very brief post. I did meet the famous doc. What a waste of a work day! Grrrr. You can read about it here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?p=973778#post973778).

And a surprising twist. I also met another ayurvedic doctor last evening, who gave me some unexpected news. Here’s his verdict (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?p=974840#post974840) on my hair loss issues.

I strongly feel that I should listen to the second doctor’s advice. Any comments? TIA!

Gratefully yours,

R

My Hair Journal (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=47229)
Hi,
I'm so glad you have found some solutions to you hair problem, it's stressful going to docs anyway let alone having so many different opinions!
What was your Reiki trial class like? I teach Reiki but i love to know what other people make of it!
I am going to start adding tea tree oil to my conditioner from now on!

Short update:
I met the ayurvedha doctor again y'day with my parents who were very sceptical. You guys would be surprised to hear how few people believe this ancient ayurvedha... for most, western medicine is the only "trusted" option here.

But somehow I convinced my folks - what harm was there to try the nasyam? The timing is also perfect - I'm having some off time due to xmas and new year. And the treatment can be given only from the 10th day of the start of your periods. In that count also, I am ready now...

and, well, finally, I am desperate.... at worst, it's going burn my nostrils and make me retch in the mornings - at least I get to purify my lungs. And if my hair loss still occurs after the 2 week theraphy, I guess I will just go back to western medicine. Hmm.

So my first sitting is at 8pm this sunday on an empty stomach... I am also on a strict masala-less diet for the 7 days of nasyam. Horrible! But then I can lose some weight, I guess. Am quite looking forward to some serious mucus-busting! LOL.

EQ and Dulci, thank you for ur sweet words! :flowers:

EQ, are you an Indian/Tamilian by any chance??? Here's the address of the doctor:

Arogyamridhum Vaidya Sala
106, G. N. Chetty Road
Opposite to Rohini International Hotel
T. Nagar - 600 017

If you need his phone number, I can message it to you.

Gilli, I have pm'ed you :)

R

Smara, thanks for the info of the doctor. Yes, I would like his phone # and his name, too, if you don't mind. Thanks a lot! I've already asked DH to take me to see him when we visit Chennai. And my in-laws have some health issues that they might want to seek his help, too. Well, I am not an Indian/Tamilian, but I married one. My in-laws are like parents to me, and they treat me like a daughter. So I regard myself as at least half Indian/Tamilian. :smile:

Oh by the way, were you using the Kalan neeli? Where could you get it in Chennai? My mother-in-law had a hard time finding it, see all the things I made my amma do for me. :smile:

Wish you good luck with your treatments. Please keep us posted, I am very interested in the details of these Ayurveda treatments.

I thought you might find this interesting - don't know if it will help

[PDF] Materia Medica of the Local Health Traditions of PayyannurFile Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Valiyenna is medicated oil prepared at Sastha temple at Thakazhi ... due to infestation of fungus and bacteria. Besides causing deterioration, fungus ...
krpcds.org/publication/downloads/80.pdf - Similar pages

If you do in fact have a fungus infection it is treatable.
If the alternate method you choose works and it is not an infection - great.

I would change you hair care routine in the meantime just as a break from your routine and try something mild.

Hey Smara! About the fungal infection, I found this article and found it quite intriguing. Is this what you have?

Furuncle Treatment

Furuncles may heal on their own after an initial period of itching and mild pain. More often, they progress to pustules that increase in discomfort as pus collects. They finally burst, drain, and then heal spontaneously.

Furuncles usually must drain before they will heal. This most often occurs in less than 2 weeks. Boils that persist longer than 2 weeks, recur, are located on the spine or the middle of the face, or that are accompanied by fever or other symptoms require treatment by a health care provider because of the risk of complications from the spread of infection.

Warm moist compresses encourage furuncles to drain, which speeds healing. Gently soak the area with a warm, moist cloth several times each day. Deep or large lesions may need to be drained surgically by the health care provider. Never squeeze a boil or attempt to lance it at home because this can spread the infection and make it worse.

Meticulous hygiene is vital to prevent the spread of infection. Draining lesions should be cleaned frequently. The hands should be washed thoroughly after touching a boil. Do not re-use or share washcloths or towels. Clothing, washcloths, towels, and sheets or other items that contact infected areas should be washed in very hot (preferably boiling) water. Dressings should be changed frequently and discarded in a manner that contains the drainage, such as by placing them in a bag that can be closed tightly before discarding.

Antibacterial soaps and topical antibiotics are of little benefit once a furuncle has formed. Systemic antibiotics may help to control infection.

Drainage is the definitive treatment.

http://health.allrefer.com/health/furuncle-treatment.html

Hey Smara! About the fungal infection, I found this article and found it quite intriguing. Is this what you have?

Furuncle Treatment

Furuncles may heal on their own after an initial period of itching and mild pain. More often, they progress to pustules that increase in discomfort as pus collects. They finally burst, drain, and then heal spontaneously.

Furuncles usually must drain before they will heal. This most often occurs in less than 2 weeks. Boils that persist longer than 2 weeks, recur, are located on the spine or the middle of the face, or that are accompanied by fever or other symptoms require treatment by a health care provider because of the risk of complications from the spread of infection.

Warm moist compresses encourage furuncles to drain, which speeds healing. Gently soak the area with a warm, moist cloth several times each day. Deep or large lesions may need to be drained surgically by the health care provider. Never squeeze a boil or attempt to lance it at home because this can spread the infection and make it worse.

Meticulous hygiene is vital to prevent the spread of infection. Draining lesions should be cleaned frequently. The hands should be washed thoroughly after touching a boil. Do not re-use or share washcloths or towels. Clothing, washcloths, towels, and sheets or other items that contact infected areas should be washed in very hot (preferably boiling) water. Dressings should be changed frequently and discarded in a manner that contains the drainage, such as by placing them in a bag that can be closed tightly before discarding.

Antibacterial soaps and topical antibiotics are of little benefit once a furuncle has formed. Systemic antibiotics may help to control infection.

Drainage is the definitive treatment.

http://health.allrefer.com/health/furuncle-treatment.html

Smara, it is great that you are finding answers. It sounds like the road to healing and enlightenment will not be a quick one. But you are learning along the way, and I am sure your dedication will lead you to the answer(s) you need.

Although there will likely be setbacks and reversals until you conquer this issue, you will still be moving ahead and getting closer to your goal. Keep plugging away, my dear, and best of luck in your quest.

Dear Smara,

Good that you like your new doctor. I would like to do the panchakarma sometime too. My dream is to do it at The Raj once every year, which is very expensive. http://www.theraj.com/rajoffers/detox.html. Hope you get it done too. I was looking at your journal where you said

Shed count:
Wash days : 80-120
Other days : 20-30

I personally think this is a normal or a very healthy shed. I used to shed more than 120 hairs per day which has reduced now. Good luck in your quest for solving other scalp issues.

Dear all,
I completed my nasyam therapy yesterday and have written about my experience here -
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?p=984984#post984984

After a week of treatment, here're my observations:

Verdict:

Headaches: GOOD
No more splitting headaches; have occasional mild ones

Scalp pain: GOOD
No more

Blocked nose: GOOD
No more

Weight loss: GOOD
lost 2kg (yay!)

Overall health: GOOD
Felt clarity in thought and was greatly de-stressed. Possibly becos I was on medical leave and banned from the computer!

Hair loss: BAD
- Lost 25-30 hairs every day.
- Lost 175 hairs today (oiled and washed hair after a week). (UPDATE: Lost 30 more hairs by the end of the day :(.... so that'd be 205, sob)

I thought it was pretty good that I lost only 25-30 hairs a day... but then I lost so much today that I called the doctor and blubbered. She says that I should take up SHIRODHARA (http://www.femail.com.au/shirodhara_ayurvedic_treatment.htm) and also continue taking medicines for at least 3 months to see good results, as hair loss can't be stopped like closing a tap.

Well, that's too bad, but I am being hopeful about the Shirodhara. Let's see!

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

:)
R

My Hair Journal (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=47229)

Happy New Year, Smara. You are in my thoughts with best wishes for your new hair growth this year. And the improvement in your pain is excellent! Congratulations on that success. :flowers:

Please have your blood checked for any autoimmune disorders.....I have an autoimmune disorder and the ONLY symptom I had was hairloss. After going to the dermatologist he found fungus yes, inflamation yes, dandruff yes...... Now I am not saying you have an autoimmune disorder but many times they are discovered by way of this symptom only and some physicians are somewhat not as adept lets say...at eliminating ALL OTHER POSSIBILITES. If your thyroid checked ok and your diet is adequte and there is no anemia, and stress is not a factor, well have an antibody test for any autoimmune trouble...Please. I AM NOT A DOCTOR but a nurse and can assure you doctors can misdiagnose... My hair loss sounded just like yours scalp showing everywhich way !! no matter how much I tried to hide it. My hairloss was over a period of months not overnight, but it was not normal hairloss. Thankfully I have it undercontrol now. Please ask about the antibody test...and if your told nonsense then find a doctor who will listen and test for ALL possibilities not just the first.

Smara Hope you are better now!!
I agree with the above poster--Make sure you do full complete tests for auto-immune disorders, and also for complete thyroid. ?Thyroid disorders are sometimes not caught w/ a basic test. This is especially important if it shows borderline levels. Eve borderline levels can cause hair/ skin problems.
Someone also mentioned healthy diet, low sugar, and yogurt. Low sugar is good caus that feeds yeast if there is yeast in the digestive system as well. Yogurt has good bacteria to replace where the yeast may have been in your systema nd to comabt any furure yeast.Make sure it has active cultures.

Smara

One question

Have you been to your regular doctor to get blood work done and rule out other possibilities?

I realize that your problem is specific but you mention other symptoms - perhaps there is and underlying medical condition that testing overall to slowly eliminate possibilities will reveal.

oops - did not read carefully enough - you have already been given this advice.